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Reel Bearing Slop (Bearing Vs. Reel Cup).

servicing gear noise meshing grinding smooth

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#1 Slazmo

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:58 PM

Hi guys,

 

First post so be kind  :thumbsu:

 

I have been servicing my own reels for as many years as I can remember and I am part of some forums back in Aus and I have been in touch with Allan over this issue and thought that I would take the dive and migrate the photo's onto this site for both Allan's review and others with the same issues at hand.

 

Primarily I am fixated on 'smooth' reels - I like gears to be perfectly meshed and reels that perform day in and year out. I like to keep my reels in their best working order and always up to the task of fishing - but who doesnt?

 

Anyhow the issue was that I purchased a brand new (out of the cabinet) Shimano Stradic 4000F Ci4 (Australian Landed) reel, this was the last specimen of its kind at the store and could not be compared to any others or swapped. It was suffering from some bad gear noise straight out of the box. I opened it up and it was greased with OEM products and so forth. I noticed that there was a lot of bearing slop with the bearing seated in their cups - this from both drive gear bearings and the rotor bearing. The culmination of these three bearings and their associated slop made for the reel to be noisy both in use and in sound.

 

I spoke to Allan after I tried my stage 1 fix with Glad Wrap (Cling Film) - however I felt that this needed a more stable and longer lasting fix. I tried Aluminium foil (would have liked to get marine quality shim paper) however wrapping this finely around the bearings proved to be completely reliable and successful!

 

Some of the photo's of the Stradic's internal quality issues with "bearing slop".

These are only some of the pictures that I have - others didnt want to be uploaded? But this spells a grim story for any reels with this amount of bearing slop, which will eventually wear other things out internally.

 

Attached File  RH Drive Shaft OD.JPG   88.29KB   10 downloads

Attached File  RH Drive Shaft Bearing ID.JPG   104.37KB   6 downloads

Attached File  RH Drive Shaft Bearing OD.JPG   87.57KB   8 downloads

Attached File  RH Housing Bearing Cup OD.JPG   133KB   8 downloads


Edited by Slazmo, 31 July 2013 - 10:04 PM.


#2 Slazmo

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:08 PM

This post shows the shim paper being applied to the outer of the bearing to take up the slack - some Aluminium foils have greater thicknesses so its best to test what you have prior to application ( I have 0.2mm foil).

Attached Files



#3 Milkman

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:03 AM

Slazmo, thanks for a great post, and very good photos to show it also,
That is VERY concerning regarding the lack of tight tolerances in the Stradic CI4! You would have to think all the Ci4's would be the same, not just yours?? Shimano Japan should be ashamed of this...
It almost seems to me that the bearing dimensions in the original design have changed further into production...ie. are narrower than the originals....ie. Chinese bearings that change specification "mysteriously" from the original specification.....this is all hearsay on my part btw and i am not sure this is where the bearings are made...

Shimano have just released a new version in the US, the CI4+, so i wonder if they have the same issues?

Edited by Milkman, 01 August 2013 - 05:45 AM.


#4 Slazmo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:11 AM

The new 'Ci4+' - is a new design with the X Ship and a supposedly stronger Ci4 material (250% stronger - how so?) - I suspect that the Sustain's rotor was the test pig for the Ci4+ as it was marketed as 30% stronger than regular Ci4... And as Allan suggests the Sustain is "OVER RATED" for sure - would buy a Stradic FJ and lots of line for it for the same money here in AUS.

 

I have found that there is this 'slop' on both my Ci4's both being 2500F & 4000F, some is found in my Sustain 5000 FG and I fixed my older Saros 1000F and now working through some of the others in my box.

 

I think as a friend of mine suggested that there is either A) something wrong with the press that manufactures the reel bodies or the bearings either how they're installed or even manufactured, or Shimano has dropped the ball with the standards of the ball bearing sourcing. My local Shimano service centre denies this 'handle play' and wanted to get the reel in as they quote "have never seen this before". The Stradic Ci4's have been out for donkeys years, and handle play exists in possibly 99% of all reels.

 

When I measured the tolerances I was shocked! My manager at work said that I was stupid to buy a $97 digital vernier caliper just for this exercise, however I wanted to intently show how bad these tolerances are in a brand new reel! I am happy with .01mm between the bearing ID and the drive shaft OD - I am not happy with some tolerances hitting .06mm between the bearing OD and the body cup ID - thats where the business is at - that gets worse the whole reel gets worse in direct relation... Thats too much to bear and I have shimmed as such these tolerances as much as I can and the result is utter "perfection"!

 

I fished this afternoon with the greasiest grin on my face - reel was so smooth! Nothing worse than seeing some fella fishing in the mangroves with a big greasy grin on his face...

 

It looks like I'll be hitting that Sustain 5000 FG next week and shimming it also, there is a bit of noise in there from factory again. I just wish I could get the other photo's up that I have - not exciting however does show more of the story - however the worst of the tolerances has been shown for all to see.

 

Andrew


Edited by Slazmo, 01 August 2013 - 05:22 AM.


#5 namtheman

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:29 PM

Hi Andrew, I've also noticed this problem of ill-fitting bearings in other Shimano reels with bodies made of their carbon plastic. I've used Loctite bearing retaining compound (can't remember the exact number but it was the weakest one - designed for subsequent bearing removal) and it has worked well. The retaining compound works like a (weak) glue that fills the space between the bearing and it's housing, and thus stops unwanted bearing movement.

A possible concern with using aluminium foil as a shim (as you have) is that it may work it's way out over time (but then again it may not at all). Have you had a chance to open the reel again to see if this has happened?

I've also used silicon sealant as a bearing retaining compound and that has also worked ok.



#6 Slazmo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:16 PM

Hi Nametheman,

 

I am unaware of these bearing compounds that you speaking of however the principal has been used in bearing cups when I worked at a road bike repair / sales shop - this compound stopping the cups from creaking in the frames "ceramic" grease as such.

 

Applying a compound to any reel frame and or bearing could run a risk of it reacting or creeping during the curing process into the bearing as the outer side of the bearing when its applied into the cup is pretty restricted to see whats going on (hence why you cant see the Alu foil when its inserted into the cup)..

 

I have fished with the reel a couple of times and have it beside me inside - I give it a good zip every now and then and cant feel the tolerances going strong - I think that the tighter the alu foil is on the bearing and between this race the lesser the chance for there to be bias and for it to creep out of the gap (hardest part is twisting the bearing while inserting it into the cup) - my original idea with glad wrap did see some creep this partly due to the fact that this area is oily and cling wrap is plastic. I am aware that at each time during the reels service interval this shim is going to have to be replaced / renewed due to the nature of removing the bearing for cleaning purposes. I am not that phased about doing this on a regular basis (alu foil is cheap vs. shim paper) and it may add about 5 mins to the total time that it takes about 1 hour per reel service (just because I do things in depth!).

 

Next step to smooth reels - Sustain FG (does have some slop!) but nowhere near as much as the Stradic's Ci4's - then the Stradic FJ's again nowhere near as much bearing slop as the Ci4's.

 

I have a vague suspicion that this is bearing slop is "built in" - this is either A) for bearing reasons or B) to accelerate wear and turn over reels - I think the latter is more fitting.

 

Andrew


Edited by Slazmo, 01 August 2013 - 07:41 PM.


#7 namtheman

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:46 PM

Hi Andrew, the compound itself is called Loctite Retaining (Compound) and comes in differing strengths. I've never had any problems with the compound (or the silicon when I've used it) creeping/seeping into the bearing, especially into the outer side. I think it's because I've only ever used it sparingly (only needed a very thin line of the stuff smeared onto the outer race of the bearing) and when you press the bearing into it's housing the compound gets pushed towards the inside and not to the outside. Any excess can easily be seen and cleaned up.The compound itself is viscous enough that it won't creep/seep and is quite inert, so it doesn't react negatively with the carbon-infused plastic (which I think is quite inert itself already).

Anyhoo, good to see the foil shim is tight enough to prevent slippage and I look forward to trying this myself when I next crack a reel open.

Thanks for your advice.



#8 Alan Hawk

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:58 PM

Thanks for the very detailed post. Actually since I posted the Stella review with those loose tolerance problems I have been receiving reports by people who checked different newly purchased Shimano reels and found similar issues. It's particularly annoying since cheap reels by Daiwa, Penn, Okuma, Quantum, Tica, etc. don't have this issue. When this happens the gears won't run steadily or mesh correctly, they will wear quickly and unevenly, and the load bearing capability of the teeth would be reduced. This is why you felt an improvement in smoothness when you took care of it.

 

Cheers.



#9 Slazmo

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:02 AM

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the post Allan + the kind words - will forward this to the crew at Bream Master forums.

 

I just shimmed the Sustain tonight after using it today at the Southport Seaway - just a little slop in the handles however nowhere near as bad as the Ci4's! I also shimmed the rotor bearing and by god isn't the reel so much more smoother. Just amazing how simple this fix is and now how sturdy the rotor sits with no wobble at all.

 

Like Allan said - its such a shame that this is in new reels... And some of the other reels dont have these issues - especially those from cheaper manufacturers.

 

Anyhow all is well at the moment and I have such a big smile on my dial when fishing - reels are smooth and all is good with the world.


Edited by Slazmo, 02 August 2013 - 06:14 AM.


#10 palkr

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:13 PM

Interesting post! I picked up a new stradic FD today at the post office (the version currently sold in the Nordic countries, equivalent to the FJ). It wasn't smooth like my FJ, and upon inspection I found that the rotor can be tilted back and forth quite a lot. Closer inspection revealed that the pinion bearing was free to move inside the recess in the frame. Just like your main bearing.

When I angled the reel 'nose down' with rotor and IAR removed, and tapped it ever so carefully, the bearing just fell out! I could have shimmed it, but being a brand new reel it's going back to the shop with a note saying why.



#11 Slazmo

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:55 PM

Interesting post! I picked up a new stradic FD today at the post office (the version currently sold in the Nordic countries, equivalent to the FJ). It wasn't smooth like my FJ, and upon inspection I found that the rotor can be tilted back and forth quite a lot. Closer inspection revealed that the pinion bearing was free to move inside the recess in the frame. Just like your main bearing.

When I angled the reel 'nose down' with rotor and IAR removed, and tapped it ever so carefully, the bearing just fell out! I could have shimmed it, but being a brand new reel it's going back to the shop with a note saying why.

I doubt that they'll do anything about it, its in its design... I have measured more reels and their bearings and found that there tolerances are tighter than the Ci4's however still average about .3mm difference between bearing and cup.

 

I have gone to the Boca Bearing website and could only find bearings with whole MM Diameters, eg: Shimano Bearing 10.97mm Vs. Boca Bearings 11mm etc etc etc.

 

Shimming is a fix, and so is replacing these OEM bearings with BOCA's... I would like to do this myself however the Aussie dollar and the postage is a killer from the USA at the moment.



#12 palkr

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:06 AM

The second Stradic (size 1000FD) arrived today, with exactly the same movement in the rotor. And the not so smooth feeling. So both the 'regular' plastic and Ci4 reels have this problem of bearing slop. Do you know if it's the same with the metal body reels? Judging from Alan's observations of the SWB, it might be widespread, and not only limited to 'outside Japan' made reels?

 

Again, thanks for sharing this very interesting and useful information!

 

Cheers,

Paal


Edited by palkr, 08 October 2013 - 09:24 AM.


#13 Slazmo

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:23 PM

Yes I had slop in my Sustain also, had to shim that. I believe its the bearings - odd sizes...



#14 palkr

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:39 PM

Just to add some statistics.... :)

 

I checked out 4 stradic FJ 1000 last week, and they all had rotor wobble (rotor could be tilted sideways, which screws up gear alignment). I also checked one Stradic Ci4+ (the brand new model), and it had no rotor wobble at all. It was supersmooth to crank, a  noticeable improvement over the stradic FJs that I had next to it.

 

Makes me wonder if my supersmooth Stradic FJ 5000 (with absolutely no slop or friction anywhere) was a lucky shot.....?



#15 Slazmo

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 01:28 AM

I checked out 4 stradic FJ 1000 last week, and they all had rotor wobble (rotor could be tilted sideways, which screws up gear alignment). I also checked one Stradic Ci4+ (the brand new model), and it had no rotor wobble at all. It was supersmooth to crank, a  noticeable improvement over the stradic FJs that I had next to it.

 

 

Makes me wonder if my supersmooth Stradic FJ 5000 (with absolutely no slop or friction anywhere) was a lucky shot.....?

 

I have a FJ Stradic 1000 and it has little to no bearing slop and another 2500 which has a little but not of concern, I too bought a Stradic 5000 FJ and its got to be the smoothest stock reel I have wound in as long as I can remember! I would even go as far as to say it would be somewhere near the Biomaster / Stella smooth.



#16 Slazmo

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:51 AM

Just an update - within regards to the new Stradic Ci4+ model I have had to shim another bearing in this reel. It is the brand new model of the Ci4+ range and found that the RH handle bearing had at least .02mm slop - just one pass of aluminium foil as shim to relieve that slop. Otherwise the LH bearing and the rotor bearing are near enough tight.

 

Internally near enough the same as the old model and close enough, however some metals have been replaced with softer materials and cost cutting measures have been employed throughout the reel to achieve a total of 2 gram weight saving over from the last model...

 

Allan - could you help find out what the metal Shimano use in the old Stradic Ci4 shaft and the new Ci4+ worm oscillation drive is. I have contacted Shimano Australia and now Shimano USA and am getting the tight lip treatment. It is a green tinged metal that is far lighter than the Stainless Steel that they use...



#17 RangerKelly

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM

I have one Shimano CI4+ and I am thinking of ordering another.  After reading this I am wondering how difficult it would be to order the Boca bearing kits and switch all the bearings out.  I do NOT know my way around the inside of a reel, but I am decent with mechanical things.  I figure if I have good ceramic bearings that fit well plus an extra in the crank arm, it would feel like a Sustain or Stella.  How hard is it to change out the bearing?  If it is difficult, how hard is it to find someone who I can pay to do it for me?

 

Thank you



#18 Slazmo

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:15 PM

I have one Shimano CI4+ and I am thinking of ordering another.  After reading this I am wondering how difficult it would be to order the Boca bearing kits and switch all the bearings out.  I do NOT know my way around the inside of a reel, but I am decent with mechanical things.  I figure if I have good ceramic bearings that fit well plus an extra in the crank arm, it would feel like a Sustain or Stella.  How hard is it to change out the bearing?  If it is difficult, how hard is it to find someone who I can pay to do it for me?

 

Thank you

Wouldnt be hard at all, just cost is prohibitive here in Australia otherwise I would go on a rampage replacing all my standard bearings to 2RS shielded hybrids...

 

Just have to measure the OD, ID and width and if there is any slop measure the bearing cup and see if there is a bearing that will fit that cup better than the OEM bearing.

 

Ceramics in my view have a lot of upsides, especially the 2RS shielded types, however may cause a little drag on the reels operation however not a problem in my eyes.






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